New plumb bob or level??
Bill 9/19/02 8:15 p.m.
When plumbing up door frames, do you guys like a plumb bob or a level? I saw norm use one on this old house and liked it, I have alwayes used a long stabila level.
Whats your opinion?? On the advantages or disadvantages of each method! Thanks

Re: plumb bob or level??
Wayne 9/19/02 8:40 p.m.
I've used both methods but usually use a level. To me, it just seems more time efficient than steadying a plumb bob, but a plumb bob is more accurate, especially if you have a questionable level. Just my 2¢.
Wayne

Re: plumb bob or level??
Gary Katz 9/19/02 9:51 p.m.
I use a level because it's also a straightedge--one of the other crucial steps in setting a jamb properly. I have used a plumb bob many times, for extremely tall jambs, especially for pivot doors. A plumb bob is the best way to locate top and bottom pivots for Rixon hardware, etc. But that's another story. Lately I've been using one of those new Stabila extendable Plate Levels for almost every jamb--6/0 to 10/0. Kind of nice.
Gary

Re: plumb bob or level??
Derrell Day 9/20/02 10:07 a.m.
Ditto on Gary's advice...
Down in here in the southeast there's always a fan blowing to try to keep us cool. Plumb bobs dance around too much, plus they are way too time consuming unless they are the only alternative. I set interior columns with a plumb bob.
I use the level as a straight edge to insure casing is straight and check for door warpage.

Re: plumb bob or level??
robillard 9/20/02 4:55 p.m.
I use the level for almost every installation.

Re: plumb bob or level??
GACC Dallas 9/21/02 12:39 a.m.
I like to use the plumb bob. Hang it of the edge in the center of the head jamb and line it up with a spreader on the bottom. Quick, easy and accurate. You do have to turn the fan around for a few minutes but a good sweat never hurt anybody.
There are as many good ways to hang a door as there are good carpenters.
Ed. Williams

Re: plumb bob or level??
Clampman 9/21/02 3:51 p.m.
I started using a heavy metal throwing dart dangling from a short length of thread in lieu of a plumb bob. Not for hanging doors, but other things.
Not recommended for marble floors however.
Clampman

Re: plumb bob or level??
mike 9/22/02 6:20 a.m.
I put two cross battens/spreaders on the top and bottom of the jambs, drop a plumb-bob, set a nail in the end of each batten, then use a long level to shim in between. My long level is a stabila, I don't particularly like the short bubble.

Re: plumb bob or level??
T M oore 9/22/02 11:51 a.m.
When we're starting a new commercial job, I always make a gift to the Super of a brand new Jamber set from Stabila. The cost (just over $200) for the set creates goodwill for me, and provides the Super with an easy method of double-checking the Stud Framer.
Having said that; I use both when hanging our own woodframes. Plumb with difficult jambs and offset pivots, then double check with both the 'extend'a levels and our Stabila's.
Our recent completed hospital in Mesa AZ was a near-perfect HM Frame install from the Framer. An excellent job. Cross-sighted with strings, used the Super's levels to double-check and even used the 3' & 4' Glaziers Squares (Lufkin makes the best!)I borrowed to him to 2x check the header.
That last item was a new one to the framer: he said all he's ever done is level the header; to which I showed him "if the jambs are both plumb, x-sited and in-line, then square the header to the done-deal-jambs and 'yer done & good".
With wood, cutting down is always an option. With P-Lam and HM... it had better be right or the door-dude is in trouble after the Framer is long gone.
T Moore
Active Door

Re: plumb bob or level??
Norm Yeager 9/22/02 5:53 p.m.
I've hung more inteior doors in my life(prehung) without plumb bob or level-not saying that's the way to do it but it was the reality of tract work and high production.I don't ever recall having a call back. The margin around the door and the trims relationship to adjacent surfaces were the governing factors. You knew pretty quickly if things weren't right if both jamb legs weren't sitting on the floor or if the door closed by itself without benefit of closer.In the past several years I've been supervising commercial jobs with most of the jambs being steel with abutting masonry . I would not use anything but a plumb bob.In this case the plumb bob hangs in a long metal tube with a powerful magnet on the top that holds it to the jamb.It's unaffected by wind. We get the hinge side perfect and then install 2 spreaders to the lockside.I level the head and then double check with a framing square to the side jambs.It's a tough fix if one of these jambs gets in out of whack.An old carpenter (I am one now)once that everybodies level reads different but everybodies plumb bob reads the same.

Re: plumb bob or level??
Derrell Day 9/23/02 7:01 a.m.
Norm,
Where did you get your plumb bob?

Re: plumb bob or level??
Clampman 9/24/02 9:16 p.m.
One of these days I'm going to start producing a level of my own, specifically for leaving on the job. Got to call it the "Indestructo". Instead of the yellow or green alcohol inside the glass, mine will have green epoxy. That way anyone checking on me can see for themselves that everything is perfectly level.
Clampman

Re: plumb bob or level??
Peter 9/25/02 1:38 a.m.
I whole-heartedly agree with Clampman and I hope he fills his bubble with Helium.
I have just finished an incomphensible tome on surveying and I would like to point out that you have to take the curvature of the earth into consideration. In other words, the space between the jambs at the the header must be a couple of nanometers wider than the distance at the floor. Also, the earth is not a sphere but an elipsoid and a plumb bob does not necessarily point exactly to the center. Furthermore it is likely to be deflected, slightly, by nearby mountains.
-Peter

Re: plumb bob or level??
Al Constan 9/26/02 12:15 a.m.
How about this one. Can this one be used for the purpose you guys are talking about.? Tell us how.
www.mytoolstore.com/berger/lasrplum.html
http://www.mytoolstore.com/berger/lasrplum.html

Re: plumb bob or level??
Clampman 9/26/02 9:05 p.m.
For most applications, I still swear by my accudart. Where it sticks into the floor is plenty plumb enough for me, and it is very quick. 32 feet per sec/sec.And I can do it alone. The only dangerous part is when I take out my rule to get to where I want to make a mark. I often hurt myself pretty badly with it.
Clampman

Re: plumb bob or level??
Norm Yeager 9/29/02 2:40 p.m.
Derrell- I tried to send you an Email but was unsuccessful- The disadvantage of being a low tech guy in a high tech world. I have a tough enough time just trying to type a message. However I love reading the comments from all the very knowledgeable guys. The plumb bob I use belongs to the company I work for and was undoubtedly purchased many years ago. I'll get the name off it and post it when I get back to my construction trailer.I showed it to one of our youger Supts. and he couldn't figure out what it was. Well,from this point on his doors should be fittin alot better.

Re: plumb bob or level??
mike 10/11/02 10:20 p.m.
hey do you guys hang doors with trim on one side
or just hang the prehung door alone and trim both sides later

Re: plumb bob or level??
Mike Nathan 10/11/02 11:48 p.m.
I learned a excellent method from a fine homebuilding video on hanging doors. Level your head jamb , put a mark on the head jamb. I usually come 3" off the hinge side and hang a plumb bob. I cut a scrap of wood the width of the jambs as a strecher of equal lenght as head jamb with a 3" mark. This lays on floor. Now move the header or strecher and shim until bob is over mark. I use my 78" level as a straight edge to get the vertical jambs straight.
Opening is now dead plumb. I usually tack this piece to floor when opening is plumb. I use fine line to pull diagonals from outside corners to get opening in plane. Sometimes I have to skew the opening for warped doors. I now use the star fasteners behind the door stops to get the reveals
just right 3/32". This is the only method I use now. No one argues with a 1 1/2 lb. bob

Re: plumb bob or level??
George Roberts 10/12/02 7:42 p.m.
Out of courious:
How plumb does a door have to be?
(I set my walls with a 4' level and then nail my hinge side of the door frame to the stud.)

Re: plumb bob or level??
Joe Carola 10/12/02 7:59 p.m.
George,
For this one builder, I use to frame the houses and then go back and trim them (Sounds Crazy, Framer Triming)
I use to take my 6'-6" level, shim & nail the hinge side first and then put my door in place and shoot the hinge side into the shims.
Then go around and check all my reveals and shim and nail it up.
Does this sound crazy to you?

Re: plumb bob or level??
George Roberts 10/13/02 2:22 p.m.
Joe ---
Your builder sounds normal. Perhaps more normal for 100 years ago rather than now. Perhaps more normal for a small builder than a large production builder. But normal none the less.
But my question is "How plumb does a door have to be?"
I set the prehung doors in my daughter's house by setting the jams on the foor flush with the drywall, and checking the gap at the top for uniformity. No level. No plumb bob. The doors function properly (don't swing open/closed by themselves but open/close easily.)
Yet here we have people debating the quality of levels vs. plumb bobs. They must see something I am missing.

Re: plumb bob or level??
Gary W. 10/13/02 11:30 p.m.
Exactly George, I never use a level to hang doors. What if the wall is out of plumb? I always hang to the wall and cheat where needed for it to look good and hang without opening and closing by it self. Unless there is not a wall near, then I use a level, but your right, they don't need to be perfectly plumb.
Gary W.

Re: plumb bob or level??
Brad 10/13/02 11:53 p.m.
Gary W, and George,
I'm glad somebody said it, I was beginning to think it was just me. In most of the houses I work in, if I were to hang all the doors plumb I would be out of a job soon. With leaning walls and sloping floors it's a challenge to make the doors look right. By the time we get to a job it's too late to make the job perfect, the job of the finish carpenter is to make it LOOK perfect.
Brad

Re: plumb bob or level??
Dick Seibert 10/13/02 11:56 p.m.
I was retained by a contractor to defend him in an action brought by a homeowner for below standard construction in a new custom house (started out as a spec and owner bought and customized it half way through). The entire time I was doing my walk through the owner was going from door to door with a level showing me how out of plumb the doors were (some were as much as ¼"). It's a pretty hard thing to defend against, what is the industry standard for plumb on a door?

Re: plumb bob or level??
Gary W. 10/14/02 12:11 a.m.
To defend against this easy, just tell the owner to check the walls. See if they can find a perfectly plumb wall in their house. Like Brad said the job of a finish carpenter is to make the end product to look good, not to make every thing plumb and level. If it was then its to late to check by time we get in a house to finish it. It has to start with the fountation and every other trade that follows.
I don't see how a standard would help either, what would be the standard 1/16, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, 1", I have seen them all. Most of the time you can't tell the door is out of plumb because it is even with the wall and it looks plumb.
Gary W.

Re: plumb bob or level??
Dick Seibert 10/14/02 12:39 a.m.
Gary:
I was retained by the General Contractor who was being sued (and is the responsible party). I build my houses from the ground up with the same crew, so I don't have this problem. The general was an architect (paper contractor) who subbed out everything. I think this is typical of the problems that paper contractors run into. The State of California takes the position that the trade that follows accepts the work that goes before and is responsible for it, if the framing was out of plumb, the finish contractor should not have proceeded, because by proceeding he accepted the work that had gone before and was responsible for it. On this same house the framer missed the subfloor nailing and the marble floors all broke up (the carpeted areas could be easily fixed by pulling back the carpet and renailing), the tile contractor was responsible because he is held to accept the floors that he went over. As an expert I am supposed to know what the industry tolerances are for doors. In this case the general settled with the owner for $30,000, and sued the tile and finish carpentry contractors for indemnity, I don't know whether they cross complained against the framing contractor for indemnity.

Re: plumb bob or level??
Roger 10/14/02 8:22 a.m.
NAHB has published a document entitled RESIDENTIAL CONSTRUCTION PERFORMANCE GUIDELINES –Homeowner Reference.
This guide states, among other things, Doors shall not warp in excess of ¼”: Doors shall not drag on carpets: Doors shall not swing open or closed by force of gravity alone: The door edge shall be within 3/16” of parallel to the door jamb. The guide does not address the plumb of the door, however walls are not to be more than 3/8” out of plumb for any 32” in any vertical measurement. I suppose you could argue that the door follows the wall. While I don’t necessarily accept all of the tolerances given in the guide, certainly higher end work would be better, this guide is a reference and the key is to include it in the contract (modified if necessary), so that the customer agrees ahead of time as to what is acceptable. You(should)get what you pay for.
Roger

Re: plumb bob or level??
Derrell Day 10/14/02 8:30 a.m.
I always ask/inform the GC of door problems pertaining to plumb and level. I usually point blank ask if he (GC) wants all doors P&L or correct to margin. They will tell me to do whatever is necessary to make the door look good. This conversation is specific and leaves no doubt as to who said what.
The guy who ran around his house saying the dooors were out of level should have been questioned as to the accuracy of HIS level. There is an underlying battle between the GC and the homeowner that surfaced in this door conflict. Or the homeowner is just one of those kind of vermin trying to crap sombody out of something. What was the overall quality of the home? Was it just the door thing that was wrong? Probably a series of miscommunications.
I believe tolerances in an 8' wall up to 3/4" are within industry standards (hard to believe) and if a door tolerance was 1/4" (I don't know) and they were out to full tolerance at differing angles you would have what we call a "Cornswagler"..an awful looking mess that is within industry tolerances.
How would anyone "expertly" judge that?

Re: plumb bob or level??
Dick Seibert 10/14/02 1:01 p.m.
What was going on here was a young architect somehow got a general contractors' license, bought in-fill lots, designed houses for those lots, went to nearby production quality tract developments, and hired all of their subcontractors to assemble his houses. The problem came when one of his purchasers demanded custom quality, on a house built with production quality subcontractors and techniques. I think I got him a good deal by going to all of the surrounding tract developments and calculating the square foot selling prices, then went to an equal number of custom homes and calculating their square foot selling prices. I then proved that the buyer paid production quality prices and not custom quality prices, and couldn't demand custom quality work. I considered the $30,000 settlement a good deal, considering the cost of litigation, the difficulty of proving to a court that there are vastly differing standards that apply to custom homes and production quality homes. The cost of replacing the marble alone would have exceeded the $30,000.
I think that the quality differentials between production and custom quality are a dirty little secret in this industry. This is further complicated by production builders offering "semi-custom" homes, which are production quality with custom features added (such as granite counters, hardwood floors, fancy fixtures, etc.), but basically still homes built to production quality standards (like the NAHB standards quoted by Roger above).

Re: plumb bob or level??
George Roberts 10/14/02 8:22 p.m.
Production work: doors are put in plumb and square regardless of the plum of the walls.
Custom work: doors are put in to match the walls.
Production work: joints in stained trim are not color/grain matched.
Curtom work: joints in stained trim are color and grain mathced.
Production work: there are small steps between different floor materials.
Custom work: all floor materials are at the same level.
--------
On "This Old House" the crew is remodeling a bathroom. The floor slopes up from the curbless shower to the door. There is a 3" step down to the hall. I suppose that although the tile crew seems good and professional that this is production work. For custom work I would have found a way to remove that step.

Re: plumb bob or level??
Brad 10/15/02 12:52 a.m.
Although there is a big difference between the custom work and the production work, I treat both the same as far as quality. Hang the doors the same and match color/grain the same, on stained jobs. The production jobs are just faster and cheaper because all the trim is narrower and they use those damned plastic coated oven racks for shelving and they usually have little , if any, crown. In the end, my name goes on all my work, so I never change the quality.
Brad

Re: plumb bob or level??
Gary Katz 10/15/02 10:32 a.m.
Ditto Brad. WE do LOTS of both--residential, commercial, etc. Same quality. Production work is defined for us by being Productive. For tracts, apartments, commercial work where you're installing hundreds of everything, that means having sharp systems for everything, doing each job/phase at the right time and completely, etc. ie, having one guy scattering jambs, another scattering doors, another kicking in jambs, another swinging doors, etc. Same with closet shelving (pre-cutting packages for every closet), hardware, etc. Whereas, on a custom home, you slow down a little but still try to keep production and profit up.
As for plumb bobs (isn't that where this started?)I've long said that setting jambs perfectly plumb isn't always best for the job, as lots of other people have already said. We're there--like we have been for a few centuries--to make the finish and the whole house look good, not make the framers or the plasterers look bad. Plumb bobs are great for some openings, levels are fine for most, but I try to follow adjoining window casing, door casing, walls, so that margins are equal. If something's out to lunch (over 3/8"?), I bring that to the attention of the gc or homeowner and have them make the decision.
Gary

Re: plumb bob or level??
Steve 10/15/02 11:28 p.m.
I may as well grab a stick and stir up the soup some more. Check this out:
"ALL WORK IS TO BE INSTALLED PLUMB, LEVEL, AND TRUE TO LINE, UNLESS NOTED OTHERWISE."
Work on a commercial, government, or high-end residential job, and that requirement is likely to be noted in the plans and specs. Signing a contract for this type work means you do just that.
That means ALL work, folks, not just the finish carpentry. It starts with proper layout, foundations, flatwork and rough framing. It gets done right with an In-Your-Face GC who cares about the quality of the job. None of this "the finish guys will fix it" or "let the painter get it" stuff.
I fully realize that there are times when things have to be "fudged" a bit to make stuff work right. Sometimes, there's no other way. Most of the time, the need to do this could be avoided if only the people before us finish guys were paying attention, or cared.
Door hanging is one task where I refuse to compromise. I always attempt to hang every door plumb in both planes unless the door is warped; then it's time to tweak things a little. I could care less if the casing is not parallel to a nearby ajoining wall or whatever. The wall should have been plumb from the get-go; the GC can call back the framers on their nickel to do it over right if he's not happy. So far, no one's complained. I've never been fired or been reprimanded.
To continually fix other peoples problems is to perpetuate a mediocre level of craftsmanship that will continue to slide unless we say something and do something about it. So say something. Do something. Doesn't some of this shoddy stuff make any of you angry? Are you all masochists?

Re: plumb bob or level??
Brad 10/16/02 12:51 a.m.
Steve
I've done a lot of commercial, government, and high-end residential jobs, and I've never been called down for making the job look good. The line you refered to in a contract is usually followed by a line like following standard construction practices (whatever that is). I also get fed up having to fix thing for some hack that got there first, but then I remember thats why they hire me, Most of us here make a living making silk purses out of sows ears. I too would like to see a house that was plumb, level and true to line, I've been looking for that house for 32 years now. But if I ever do find one, I'm sure someone elses level would prove me wrong. I guess, that's the problem with plumb and true, Whose level are we going to use? but then I guess that brings us back to where this thread started, guess we'll have to use a plumb bob.
Steve, respectfully, you kind of lost me on the door hanging. you refuse to cheat a little when a wall is out of plumb, but if the door is warped a little, you say it is ok to cheat a little. I don't get where to draw the line, do we cover for the door manufacturer, but not the framer?
Brad

Re: plumb bob or level??
Joe Carola 10/16/02 8:54 a.m.
I'm a Framing contractor but I've also trimmed quite a few houses.
I'm just curious but does anybody think that if a foundation is out of square that I should follow it?
I never follow it, I make my framing as square as I get. That's my job. I could care less what the mason says.
Believe me I've had masons pissed off and say to me, "Why did you stick your sills past the foundation".
I tell them to learn how to square up a foundation or get out of the buisness. What am I supposed to do frame all my walls out of square.
I had my CMP calculator and showed one mason how to square up with it. He was amazed, so that night I went and bought him one. Only because I liked him, he's a good guy.
Years ago we use to follow the foundation and then square up and stick are plates past the joists and shim underneath befor we would sheath. People would say why are you doing that?
It would make me look bad.
Why should I do all that extra work because the mason can't square up a foundation. I don't get paid to do that.
I make sure all my walls are nice and square & plumb espescially kitchen, bath and cabinet walls.
We don't use bad studs we throw them aside and use them for small blocks.
I want my framing to be the best that I can make for you guys, the sheetrocker, tile guy....
Just my thoughts.

Re: plumb bob or level??
Kelly 10/16/02 10:02 a.m.
Having read some of your posts on the framing forum, Joe, I believe you're actually qualified to do just that, too.
Sometimes, especially on remodel, I'm the framer as well as the trim man. Even then I find I need to pay more attention to the wall that's only an inch beyond my door casing than to the level I use for the jamb. I can see the difference in reveal even though it might be within the tolerance of my framing (at the time I framed it, and before momma nature moved it some), and I want it to look right.
I'm the GC, so I know what it takes to satisfy me at each stage of construction, but at the end it's the Customer's eye that is the final arbiter of a satisfactory job. That's what I'm always trying to satisfy when I trim.

Re: plumb bob or level??
Joe Carola 10/16/02 12:07 p.m.
Kelly,
I don't just frame homes, I do alot of remodeling, addtions, add-a-levels...
I'm always looking out for the trimmer. Alot of the GC that I do work for are the trimmers. That makes it alot easier to discuss any problems during the framing process.
I want to know what size casings your using because if your going to use 4-1/2" I will double up on the king studs or header jacks to give you enough nailing for your trim.
Sometimes we have multiple windows with spaces in between. I 'll ask the gc what size mullion or how much space does he want in between to accomodate his trim.
I've been on jobs befor where we laid out walls and door openings with the kitchen designer.
For ex:
X amount of inches for a cabinet plus 1/2" sheetrok, then the counter top then 2" away to the back of the caseing + 2-1/2" for the casing, then 1/8" for the reveal, then subtract to the back of the door jamb allow for 1/4" space for the rough opening and that sets the framing for the rough opening.
On existing walls alot of times on older homes there out of plumb, bows, not square....
How will you set cabinets against that?
If a wall is out of plumb, I'll nail a 2x4 on the side of the bad stud plumb on both ends and then string a line across top and bottom and slide new studs to the line so you have a nice plumb and straight wall for cabinets.
I could go on all day but then you guys will probably tell me to go back to the Framing forum ;-)

Re: plumb bob or level??
Gary Katz 10/16/02 2:18 p.m.
Joe,
Oh no, you can't leave now.
I work behind a LOT of framers and few of them, make that NONE, are like you. What am I supposed to do? Refuse to work?
As a Finish Carpentry Contractor in a large metropolitan city, I work in an environment that’s not always friendly to finish carpenters: successful GC’s with little real awareness of construction but acute awareness of hard costs/interest/points/scheduling/the stock market/etc.; homeowners with no knowledge of construction but armed with House Beautiful, Architectural Digest, etc.; subcontractors from every country on the planet, bidding in a Babel against each other. That’s my reality.
On the job we just finished, the framers probably only had a 4ft level, and I bet it had a broken vial on one side. They apparently didn't own a string, either. AND the drywallers rounded every single corner in the house!--including the transition from the wall to the slope in the Master Bedroom tray ceiling--AND the owner wanted crown molding on that sloped ceiling, as well as on every single wall in the house, and none were ever lined, even the thirty-foot long hall walls--so you can imagine what fun we had installing the crown molding and the baseboard.
Sure, lots of people will say "I won't work on jobs like that." Well...you should see the craftsman-style square-sticking paneling we installed on the all the columns in that home--with angled-arched heads (JLC next year), the overdoor caps with beading and crown molding, the continuous door heads that wrap around every room--on walls that were never strung, over windows that weren't set with the heads level with each other--weren't set level with the exterior door frames; the tall square-cut baseboard that wraps around kneewalls and return walls that weren't quite square (think of the hardwood flooring running by, let alone the casing reveals from door jambs). ETC. ETC. ETC. And it’s all beautiful stain-grade alder.
Yeah, I'm a little frustrated with some of the attitudes on this topic, just as I was with the poor workmanship I had to make into Chicken Salad on that job. But it's the same with LOTS of jobs these days.
We stung lines for the Crown and held as close as possible to them--cheating where ever we could to 'help' out, as long as it wouldn't show to the eye. We cheated reveals on casing--especially on the heads of interior/exterior doors and windows (the exterior doors/windows were already stuccoed in!). On the continuous head casings, we shot control lines with a laser, then cheated wherever we could to keep reveals consistent enough so the differences wouldn’t be visible to the common eye. We even installed the base square to the flooring--and had the drywallers come in AFTER the crown, casing, and base, to float everywhere we'd marked--which was EVERYWHERE!
Sure, we all complained about how hard each step of the job was, but with the profit we made on that job, I’m not complaining at all--and more importantly, neither is the Owner/Builder. His house is bitchen. He loves it. I wish it were MINE!
Phooey on all this ‘it’s gotta be perfect’ stuff. The only ‘gotta’ is making a living and leaving happy clients behind--casing and base and paneling and shelving that looks good; doors and windows that work; quality craftsmanship that lasts long.
And on commercial jobs it’s no different. If the masons set the jambs out of square, I do my best to make the doors look good and work right--I carry a grinder to cut the tops of Hollow Metal doors (like most commercial finish carpenters), and a little 1/2 wide narrow-belt sander to grind strikes out, and a big crescent wrench to bend hinges, and I’ve slammed many a door against a block of wood to warp it to fit a cross-legged jamb (even backed my truck bumper up against a few!). Sure, there’s times when I throw my hands in the air and say “Nope, can’t fix THAT!” But I ALWAYS try. That’s my job.
Essentially, I believe I’m a FINISH carpenter in all definitions of the word: I’m there to install the finish materials in as fine a manner as I can--to make the job look finished and good; and I’m there to finish the job, too.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to vent my 101 degree fever. Now I’m ready for another nap.
Gary

Re: plumb bob or level??
Brad 10/16/02 5:36 p.m.
Gary,
Well said.
Joe
Ever consider Mississippi :)? we need framers that care around here.
Brad

Re: plumb bob or level??
Gary W. 10/16/02 5:41 p.m.
Gary, I am going to print this thread out so I can show the guys I work with what a real carpenter is. I am so sick of hearing that its our job to make it plumb and level and square that I could shit. You sound like me on the job except you are far more eligant.
Joe, I have met a few like you, but I have to say their arn't many.
Gary W.

New Re: plumb bob or level??
Dick Seibert 10/16/02 11:24 p.m.
I install my own foundations, frame my own houses and trim them out with the same carpenters. Always have, always will. Since when did carpentry get bifurcated into separate trades? There is no clean cut line between rough and finish, the carpenters are the glue that holds the whole thing together, there are thousands of things that have to be done between frame and finish, and only carpenters can do them. When I build a house my crew of carpenters are there on the transit on day one, and they are there when the final pickup is being done when the moving van is coming and the inspector is walking the house with me. I was a union carpenter myself (in the 50s), and I personally am on every job at least a couple of hours every day, and when I am not there the foreman is calling me with questions about the plumbing, electrical, painting or other sub trades. I tried subcontracting frame and finish on a 65 unit apartment complex in 1971, what a disaster, by the time I ended up having my carpenters pick up the loose ends between the so called rough and finish men, it cost me as much, if not more than having my carpenters build the whole thing to begin with.
This thread is a good example of the fallacy of trying to separate the rough carpenters from the finish carpenters. We are all carpenters, and we should all know how to do it all.