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high performer Hot-Glue gun |
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Derrell Day 11/13/02 5:03 p.m.
Has anyone gotten anywhere with these guns?
When they work they are wonderful.
They are rarely wonderful.
In almost a year I have never gotten to use an entire cartridge of glue
without having to toss it and start with a new one. I seem to spend enormous
amounts of time trying to get it to work. I've tried drilling the opening,
heating the opening, everything I can think of.
Anybody having any luck?
Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Kraig 11/13/02 10:40 p.m.
I seem to be having some good luck with it lately. Heres what I have found
to work for me.
I always plug it in and let it sit on the charger for a while before using
it. If you are reheating the glue, you will always have to puncture the
spout. I do this with a 4 or 6 finish nail. Just force it down, sometimes
twisting it with a pliers. Also, I now and then have to crack the seal
of the plunger area of the glue cartrige. If the plunger is stuck, take
the heated cartrige out with a glove on, set the nozzle end in a small
hole, take a dowel,(anything about 1/2" around and 4 or so inches
long), and rap it good with a hammer until it loosens up. It will work.
Put it back in the gun and glue away.
I almost always use the 30 second glue for everything, I keep the others,
but never really find a need for them. I only use them when I run out
of 30 second stuff.
One big thing I have noticed is how fast the glue sets depending on the
temp and direct sunlight where using it. I have found that I have best
luck when using the glue indoors, away from any heat source, and the cooler
the room temp the better.
I mainly use it to glue together all my crown moldings on cabinet installations.
I do about 3-4 kitchens a week, so I have been using the glue gun almost
every day. It is priceless for putting together those outside 22 1/2 degree
pieces around corner cabinets.
You will have best luck if you let the glued piece sit for at least 15
minutes before nailing it up. The longer the better. I will glue together
some pieces and let them sit while I do something else for a while. I
love glueing a whole run of crown, then with a few stilts and props, setting
the run on the cabinets, and nailing it off from one end to the other
and having it all come out right.
The neat thing about doing it this way is that I dont fight the warps
or curves of the individual pieces of crown. I just measure the correct
length and angle, cut and glue it, and move on to the next. The snake
of crown laying on the floor sometimes will have 2 or 3 inches of shims
under it to get the miters to glue together right becouse of the twisted
wood. But when I nail it to the cabinets, it all straightens out and is
right on the money and I did not have to "adjust" for it as
I went. This all takes a little practice, but it really seems to work
for me. You just have to find out the pro's and con's and use it for what
works for you.
It is great for gluing up your pre-assembled trim on door and window frames
too.
I know this was long winded but I was ready to throw out the gun after
about a week, but stuck with it and I am really glad I did. It has a permanent
spot on my truck now. Let me know if you have any specific problems, and
I will see if I can help you out.
Kraig
Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Derrell Day 11/14/02 7:00 a.m.
Kraig,
I use the gun just like you do and love it when it works. It just doesn't
work that well. Mitered returns are a breeze, multiple crown build ups
as you say are the way to go.
I just wish the *&(%$#^%$! thing was a little better engineered and
built out of a little heftier materials.
Hey Titebond guys, are ya'll listening?
I've often wondered if the tool companies ever monitor these sites to
see what is being said about their tools.
Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Kraig 11/14/02 7:57 a.m.
Derrell,
I could'nt agree more. I wish that the tool manufacturers would give people
like us their new tools for six months or so for real world testing. Then
take them back and re-engineer them with the suggested improvements before
putting them on the market. I have many collectors items, (mainly dust),
on my shelves at my warehouse that were good ideas, but just don't work
in the real world.
All that said, I think I have found this tool to be something I will work
with. I really do like it, even with the bugs. The benifits by far exceed
the trouble I have with it. Lets keep in touch with the tricks and tips
we discover and we can keep it from becoming another collectors item.
Kraig
Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Derrell Day 11/18/02 5:12 p.m.
Tried the dowel trick...the tube collasped.
Back to the drawing board.
Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Gary Katz 11/18/02 8:14 p.m.
Whattaya mean the tube collapsed! I just told fifty people in Cerritos
about that dowel trick! You mean it doesn't work!!!! Should have tried
it myself first....
There's got to be a way to solve that problem. I just wish that Franklin
would solve it for us--a metal gun instead of plastic might be a start.
Gary
Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
kicstart 11/18/02 8:59 p.m.
There is something no one has mentioned in this thread, and that is cost.
After a few months of practice and two guns(Franklin, to their credit,
provided the second gun free after the mounting tabs broke on the first
one) I've pretty much learned to handle the little quirks of the gun and
glue. The thing that caused me to finally put the gun down was a little
cost analysis.
Here in Atlanta those tubes cost $8 apiece. I can run crown on two sets
of kitchen cabinets with one tube, if I'm lucky. For $16, I can buy a
set of two-part CA glue. I can do about 16 kitchens with one set, and
there's no glue line.
There's also the issue of availability. The two stores in town that carry
the glue usually stock about 2 or 3 tubes at a time. So I go in, buy everything
they have, and come back in about a week and see if they've restocked.
It just wasn't working out for me, as much as I wanted it to. I deeply
respect the opinions of Gary and the other pros on this board, but in
this case I had to put the Hipurformer in the pile of lost toys and move
on with the tools that pay the bills.
Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Derrell Day 11/18/02 9:43 p.m.
I wish I would have never gotten the gun, for a couple of reasons....
1. When it works, it is wonderful, and I can see the potential of a great
time saver, but I spend too much time fiddlin with it to get glue out
of the darn thing.
2. This glue gun costs a $100. I expected more from Titebond than this.
I don't mind paying top dollar for quality tools that make my job more
efficient, but this is a PLASTIC gun that breaks on a regular basis.
3. The glue is expensive. $8 bucks a tube and I can only order it over
the internet. In almost a year of frustaration I have yet to get more
than 2/3 of a tube of glue to dispense. That makes a tube actually about
$12.
4. I really do like the idea and wish Titebond/Franklin/Steiner had spent
a little more time on research and development.
5. When I contacted Titebond they were helpful in replacing broken parts
and even kicked in a few tubes of glue. But the &*%$#&*@# gun
still doesn't work correctly. I wish it had been a complete failure so
I could have sent it back initially and been done with the whole mess.
It has enough potential to tinker with and I just hope Franklin remembers
us "ginuea pigs".
Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Kraig 11/19/02 1:26 p.m.
Derrel and Gary,
Let me respond to the tube collapsing issue. When I have used a tube that
has been re-heated and the plunger won't push the glue, (the seat in the
cartridge is stuck), I use the dowel method. Make sure that the glue cartridge
is good and hot, plug it in the gun and let it sit for 15 minutes or so.
Then take it out of the gun and put the nozzle on a small hole. You could
use a piece of 2x4 and drill a 1/4" hole in it, and put the cartidge
nozzle in it. I could not find a dowel, or similar item handy one day
so I used a 6" socket extension and put a nickel in the tube first
to even out the pressure. I give it a few good raps with a hammer and
it breaks loose. I have done this to many tubes, (probably 30% of the
re-used tubes), and it always works. I almost always use up all the glue
in the tubes, unless they have been sitting for a couple of months after
the first use.
I agree that this gun has several issues, and improvements SHOULD be made,
but it does work for me and is very cost effective when time is of the
essence in assembling the crown on my cabinet installations.
So Gary, take it from me, I was not selling you a bill of goods when recommending
this tip, I do it at least twice a week, and just did again about an hour
ago.
Good luck all and I hope I can help out in the future.
Kraig
Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Derrell Day 11/19/02 5:31 p.m.
Kraig,
My tube had been heating over 30 minutes and I inserted the tip in a small
hole I drilled in my miter table. I gave a couple of good raps and the
only "event" I experienced was the tube collasping.
Glad to hear you're having luck with yours, though.
Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Gary Katz 11/19/02 9:11 p.m.
Kraig,
I'll give it a try. But honestly, you should have seen the smiles when
I described to this group of woodworkers at Cerritos College how to get
an old cartridge to work again.
I agree, the tool is badly designed and 'almost a rippoff', and I also
agree that sometimes I wish I didn't have it, but I have grown dependent
on the thing for pre-assembling long lengths of crown, as well as self-returns,
etc. (my new 23ga pinner makes the glue gun a little less important).
But we do waste a lot of cartridges.
I'll send a note to Franklin and hopefully they'll read this thread,
Gary
Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Aaron Foster 11/20/02 12:47 a.m.
I just looked on the Titebond website and they state on the HiPurformer
spec page that the glue has a shelf life of 12 months unopened but only
16 HOURS once heated. I think those of you that are having trouble with
your guns are using them after 16 hours of idle storage. It is too bad
that you have to throw out those expensive cartridges after only one day
of use, especially if you only used a small portion of it. I will never
buy one of these guns based on the nightmare experiences all of you are
having.
http://www.titebond.com/ProductLineTB.asp?prodline=68&prodcat=1
What we have been using for the last 6 months with excellent results is
AdhesiveTech 962 in a Portasol CB900. The gun is cordless and is ready
in 5 minutes, runs for 5-8 hours straight before refueling and never clogs.
The glue is industrial grade and is very good for bonding wood. We are
very happy with this setup as it is completely reliable, no clamps are
needed, productivity goes way up and we never have to jack around with
the gun. Clamps and Gorilla glue usually stay in the truck, except for
the most critical of joints. Anyone else used this stuff? Have not had
any problems or joint failures to date and I hope we never do as this
is an enjoyable way to do a rather time consuming job otherwise.
AdhesiveTech 962
Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Derrell Day 11/20/02 6:58 a.m.
Aaron,
Where did you get the gun you are using?
Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Kraig 11/20/02 7:54 a.m.
Aaron,
Lets hear more on this gun. It looks like it would be as good of fastening
w/out the headaches.
Kraig
Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Aaron Foster 11/20/02 11:26 a.m.
Got the gun and the adhesive from Adhesive Tech. Their website has the
contact info for each state. The gun is nothing more than a portable high-temp
glue gun. It is the glue that makes all the difference. We switched to
adhesive tech 962 because it is less likely to soften in the sun as compared
to the stuff you can buy off the shelf. It can still soften in an area
exposed to extreme heat, so we use it everywhere else. This is not the
end-all for every gluing application but you will be surprised at how
many situations you can use it. And there is always epoxy/CA/Gorilla glue
for those extreme joints. According to the Adhesive Tech data sheet, a
1 square inch bond of Pine to Pine will support the weight of myself and
my two children. Stronger materials result in stronger bonds, most likely
due to the fact that weak materials will break before the glue does. If
you happen to have a high quality high-temp (400 degrees) glue gun laying
around, contact Adhesive Tech for a sample of their adhesive to see if
it will work for you. The gun was pricey, and although it is made of ABS
plastic it is very tough. The cordless gun runs hotter than most corded
so you can feed a ridiculous amount of glue out of it for larger mating
surfaces. Worth every penny, we think. Still beaming about it six months
later.
Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Ross Welsh 11/20/02 10:22 p.m.
Aaron:
Thanks for the information about shelf life of the hi-pur. I am curious
about working time of the 962 that you use. The site says 30-40 seconds.
What is your experience? Do you need a high temp gun for the 962 or does
that just speed things up?
Ross
Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Aaron Foster 11/20/02 11:18 p.m.
High temp for certain, the hotter the better. The high heat gives you
the most working time and lets the adhesive absorb into the material,
which is critical for getting joints aligned and tight before it is too
late. Anyone can use it, just don't waste time. Naturally you will need
to dry fit to ensure everything will fit before applying the adhesive.
Mistakes are easily fixed by scraping the stuff off while it is still
warm and the stuff sands off well if it is cold.
Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Derrell Day 11/21/02 6:41 a.m.
Aaron,
How 'bout a link to the website for the gun and the glue. I can't find
a site that gives much info.
Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Kraig 11/21/02 8:03 a.m.
Aaron,
Which gun do you have, I am very interested in this product. The website
shows many guns. Which do you use or wished you had purchased. Thanks
for the great info.
Kraig
Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Aaron Foster 11/21/02 10:07 a.m.
Gun:
http://www.adhesivetech.com/cb900.html
Adhesive:
Adhesive Tech 962
Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Heather Dages 12/9/02 4:28 p.m.
Hi Everybody,
I am the Product Manager for the HiPURformer Advanced Bonding System.
Thanks to an email from Gary, I logged on to your forum and have read
all of your comments. First of all, I would like to say thank you for
all of the valuable information! To see comments from professional woodworkers
like yourselves is very valuable to us at Franklin. I hope that I can
answer some of your questions and clear up some misunderstandings.
· Shelf life: 1 year unopened in the foil pouch. Once the pouch
is opened, shelf life is 4 weeks IF the cap is replaced TIGHTLY, while
the adhesive is still hot. 16 hours eludes to “pot life” of
the adhesive. You would not want to keep a cartridge heated for more than
16 hours without using it. It will increase the viscosity and discolor
the adhesive.
· Re-use of cartridges: As long as the cap is replaced properly,
you should not have to use drills, nails, hammers, dowels, or any other
things to get the adhesive to extrude. Because HiPURformer is a polyurethane
reactive hot melt, moisture is the curing mechanism. We have installed
a ball valve in the tip of each cartridge (to prevent drooling of the
glue). If moisture (from the air) gets trapped in the tip of the cartridge,
it can cure a small amount of glue, which then gets caught in the ball
valve, preventing extrusion: In this event, you can opt to punch out the
ball valve, using a drill, nail or other means. I have never tried or
heard of Kraig’s method with the dowel, but hey, Kraig, if it works
for you…
· The adhesive applicator: Inadequate engineering was eluded to
by many of you. In keeping with our own commitment to high quality, Franklin
thoroughly researched and ultimately chose a reputable, quality manufacturer
for the HiPURformer applicator. Extensive product testing did not give
rise to the problems you mentioned. We have taken note of all of your
comments and will bring them to the immediate attention of the applicator
manufacturer.
· Cost: Kickstart raises some valid concerns! The costs that were
quoted are accurate. However, MANY cabinet shops have been able to increase
production times with this product, thus justifying the cost. The build
up of strength with these three glues is such that pieces can be machined
in less than an hour. In many applications, the use of finishing nails
is eliminated, which means you don't need to go back and fill the nail
hole, sand it down, etc. Also, the product is being used in maintenance
work to make quick repairs without the use of clamps and waiting 24 hours
before stressing joints. Furthermore, a little bit of glue goes a long
way with this product! In order to maximize cost efficiency, try using
dots, as opposed to whole beads of glue...you'd be surprised at how much
strength you'll see.
We at Franklin are taking your comments seriously. Your input helps us
work toward our goal of continually improving all of our products and
services. I know that this message is long, but I wanted to adequately
address the concerns you all have about HiPURformer. I hope that my tips
will help you achieve success with the product. And to those of you still
considering the purchase of a HiPURformer Advanced Bonding System...I
hope that you decide to get one. The system can work well and there are
many woodworkers experiencing success with this product. If there are
other questions I can answer, please feel free to e-mail me or call our
Technical Service Line 800-347-4583.
Sincerely,
Heather Dages
Product Manager – HiPURformer
Franklin International
Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
ryan 12/10/02 10:24 a.m.
wow. if only more businesses affiliated with the construction trade actually
paid attention to thier customers and potential customers. kudos!
Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Kraig 12/11/02 11:12 p.m.
Heather,
Thank you for the informative post concerning your product. I think you
have enlightened us somewhat on it and if nothing else, have shown concern
by your company as to our concerns with your product.
Just as a clarification, my dowel solution to the glue not coming out
was for when the plunger area of the glue cartrige is sticking. It had
nothing to do with the nozzle end. (Though I have punched out this end
with a finish nail before).
I would like to see a little more durable plunger in the gun, as well
as some of the other improvements noted by others, but I will continue
to use your product, and do so at least every other day.
Thank you again for your response.
Kraig
Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Gary Katz 12/17/02 12:17 a.m.
Perfect. I can't imagine a better use of the internet.
Gary
Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Heather Dages 1/2/03 3:22 p.m.
I have a couple questions for all of you. Would you have an interest in
a longer open time adhesive in the HiPURformer product line? Currently,
MP75 has the longest set time (75 seconds), however, I tend to think that
there is a need for a product with a 3-5 minute open time for larger or
more intricate assemblies.
What about a faster set time product? Our current quickest is WW30 (30
second set time).
As you can imagine, there is a great deal of time and money spent on a
new product's development. I figured I would go straight to the source
on this market research. I'd appreciate your input!
Thanks,
Heather
Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Mike King 1/5/03 10:15 p.m.
Hi, I would like to Thank everyone for their input. I just purchased a
cordless(butane fueled) hot melt gun. It is probably one of the best made
tools I've bought in a long while. It works excellent -Let it warm up
and just use it all day. The place I bought mine from is "Hotstik"
- A glue and gun company. Their prices were better than Adhesive tech.
The glue I've been using on 400sq.ft of T&G pine is their UltraBond
- @35second set time - excellent glue- just make sure you have it where
you want it. I think there is a call for maybe a glue with a 60-70 sec
set time. This company is excellent to deal with. Thanks again
http://www.hotstik.com
Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Kraig 1/6/03 9:27 a.m.
Heather,
Well you asked, so here goes.
I would like to see a thinner, fast set glue. To be used when I am gluing
up hardwood crown with very clean cuts. The 30 second now sets good for
time, but tends to leave a little build up. I have since went to the suggestion
of just using a couple of drops with good success.
Also, if there was a type of glue that had a good bond, but had some flexibility
in it.
Good luck, huh? But you did ask.
I can comment on the gun itself later.
Thank you for your help and concern, I do think you have a great product,
and am encouraged that you respect our imput.
Kraig
Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Mike King 1/6/03 10:54 p.m.
I would have to agre with Kraig about a thinner fast set glue. I would
prefer it in a hot melt stick. The cordless butane gun works flawlessly.
You just wait for it to warm up then start useing it all day..no unpluging
or mess n fuss. Thanks for inputs.
Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Heather Dages 1/7/03 1:50 p.m.
Kraig and Mike,
Thanks for your input. I have had a few others comment on viscosity issues.
The WW30 is the adhesive with the lowest viscosity and the fastest set
time, so be assured that you have chosen the best of the three adhesives
for your application. I'll keep your comments in mind as we develop new
adhesives for HiPURformer. One more question... would you find disposable
applicator tips (to produce a finer bead) valuable? I am thinking of tips
that could be screwed onto the threads of the cartridges.
Thanks again,
Heather
hot glue Question
joseph merz 1/9/03 8:52 p.m.
I have seen the poly glues form a glue line after all is done and painted
,will this hot poly glue do this also.I have the titebond brand .I have
this idea that it has some gap filling strengh ,is this true?
Re: hot glue Question
clampman 1/11/03 9:46 a.m.
Joseph,
In general, yellow wood glues like titebond are the trim and cabinet guys
standard for most glue ups.
I assume by "hot glue" you are speaking of the kind that comes
out of an electric gun, not a glue pot. I use a 3m hot melt gun and glue
for down and dirty stuff that either doesn't show, is something temporary,
or is used as a fabrication aid.
Clampman
Re: hot glue Question
Heather Dages 1/14/03 3:01 p.m.
Joseph,
I am not real sure about how you are getting a glue line after the glue
has fully cured, however, liquid polyurethane glues do foam as they cure.
If the joint is not properly clamped and the piece is finished before
the glue fully cures, I suppose you could see a glue line.
The HiPURformer adhesives are polyurethanes, as well, but in a hot melt
form. They do not foam or expand as they cure, so you should not have
a problem with an exposed glue line. The adhesives do have some gap filling
capability. The WW60 has the thickest viscosity of the three, thus better
gap filling characteristics. The HiPURformer adhesives are quite different
from the typical EVA hot melts, as they build a significant amount of
strength. Because they are polyurethane adhesives, they will use moisture
from the wood and the environment to cure, forming a very strong, chemically
cross-linked bond. It would not be temporary, but permanent.
Hope this helps.
Heather
Re: hot glue Question
joseph merz 1/14/03 9:17 p.m.
Heather ,so i did not let the liquid poly cure or dry enough before letting
it get painted.It has been awhile and i do not recall the details but
it did foam up and spoil the paint .i will give the stuff another chance
.
regarding the hipurformer .it seems to be rather thick .i end up having
this thick gob that then needs to be squeezed together ,and i end up with
a glue sandwhich .I have the gun hot ,half hour today,acts like a regular
hot melt gun rather then a thin joint glue like i'd expect .am i doing
something wrong?
Re: hot glue Question
Derrell Day 1/15/03 6:39 a.m.
Heather,
What is the centipoise for the WW30 at 350° ?
Re: hot glue Question
Derrell Day 1/15/03 6:40 a.m.
Heather,
What about the WW60 ?
Re: hot glue Question
Heather Dages 1/15/03 8:59 a.m.
Joseph,
The HiPURformer adhesives do have a higher viscosity than a typical aliphatic
resin glue, like Titebond Original. But, they have great flow. You will
need to hold your pieces together tightly (or else use a clamp for a tight-fitting
joint) just until the glue sets...30, 60, or 75 seconds, depending on
which adhesive you are using. You may also be using too much glue. Try
using a thinner bead, or just dots of glue. That may help, too.
Derrell,
The application temperature for the HiPURformer adhesives is 250 degrees
F.
Here's a comparison of the viscosities:
WW30: approx. 5,000 - 8,000 cps
WW60: approx. 12,000 - 15,000 cps
MP75: approx. 8,000 - 11,000 cps
As a comparison, Titebond Original has a viscosity of 3,000 - 4,000 cps
at RT.
Heather |
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