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  high performer Hot-Glue gun  
     
  Derrell Day 11/13/02 5:03 p.m.
Has anyone gotten anywhere with these guns?
When they work they are wonderful.
They are rarely wonderful.
In almost a year I have never gotten to use an entire cartridge of glue without having to toss it and start with a new one. I seem to spend enormous amounts of time trying to get it to work. I've tried drilling the opening, heating the opening, everything I can think of.
Anybody having any luck?

Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Kraig 11/13/02 10:40 p.m.
I seem to be having some good luck with it lately. Heres what I have found to work for me.
I always plug it in and let it sit on the charger for a while before using it. If you are reheating the glue, you will always have to puncture the spout. I do this with a 4 or 6 finish nail. Just force it down, sometimes twisting it with a pliers. Also, I now and then have to crack the seal of the plunger area of the glue cartrige. If the plunger is stuck, take the heated cartrige out with a glove on, set the nozzle end in a small hole, take a dowel,(anything about 1/2" around and 4 or so inches long), and rap it good with a hammer until it loosens up. It will work. Put it back in the gun and glue away.
I almost always use the 30 second glue for everything, I keep the others, but never really find a need for them. I only use them when I run out of 30 second stuff.
One big thing I have noticed is how fast the glue sets depending on the temp and direct sunlight where using it. I have found that I have best luck when using the glue indoors, away from any heat source, and the cooler the room temp the better.
I mainly use it to glue together all my crown moldings on cabinet installations. I do about 3-4 kitchens a week, so I have been using the glue gun almost every day. It is priceless for putting together those outside 22 1/2 degree pieces around corner cabinets.
You will have best luck if you let the glued piece sit for at least 15 minutes before nailing it up. The longer the better. I will glue together some pieces and let them sit while I do something else for a while. I love glueing a whole run of crown, then with a few stilts and props, setting the run on the cabinets, and nailing it off from one end to the other and having it all come out right.
The neat thing about doing it this way is that I dont fight the warps or curves of the individual pieces of crown. I just measure the correct length and angle, cut and glue it, and move on to the next. The snake of crown laying on the floor sometimes will have 2 or 3 inches of shims under it to get the miters to glue together right becouse of the twisted wood. But when I nail it to the cabinets, it all straightens out and is right on the money and I did not have to "adjust" for it as I went. This all takes a little practice, but it really seems to work for me. You just have to find out the pro's and con's and use it for what works for you.
It is great for gluing up your pre-assembled trim on door and window frames too.
I know this was long winded but I was ready to throw out the gun after about a week, but stuck with it and I am really glad I did. It has a permanent spot on my truck now. Let me know if you have any specific problems, and I will see if I can help you out.
Kraig

Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Derrell Day 11/14/02 7:00 a.m.
Kraig,
I use the gun just like you do and love it when it works. It just doesn't work that well. Mitered returns are a breeze, multiple crown build ups as you say are the way to go.
I just wish the *&(%$#^%$! thing was a little better engineered and built out of a little heftier materials.
Hey Titebond guys, are ya'll listening?
I've often wondered if the tool companies ever monitor these sites to see what is being said about their tools.

Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Kraig 11/14/02 7:57 a.m.
Derrell,
I could'nt agree more. I wish that the tool manufacturers would give people like us their new tools for six months or so for real world testing. Then take them back and re-engineer them with the suggested improvements before putting them on the market. I have many collectors items, (mainly dust), on my shelves at my warehouse that were good ideas, but just don't work in the real world.
All that said, I think I have found this tool to be something I will work with. I really do like it, even with the bugs. The benifits by far exceed the trouble I have with it. Lets keep in touch with the tricks and tips we discover and we can keep it from becoming another collectors item.
Kraig

Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Derrell Day 11/18/02 5:12 p.m.
Tried the dowel trick...the tube collasped.
Back to the drawing board.

Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Gary Katz 11/18/02 8:14 p.m.
Whattaya mean the tube collapsed! I just told fifty people in Cerritos about that dowel trick! You mean it doesn't work!!!! Should have tried it myself first....
There's got to be a way to solve that problem. I just wish that Franklin would solve it for us--a metal gun instead of plastic might be a start.
Gary

Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
kicstart 11/18/02 8:59 p.m.
There is something no one has mentioned in this thread, and that is cost.
After a few months of practice and two guns(Franklin, to their credit, provided the second gun free after the mounting tabs broke on the first one) I've pretty much learned to handle the little quirks of the gun and glue. The thing that caused me to finally put the gun down was a little cost analysis.
Here in Atlanta those tubes cost $8 apiece. I can run crown on two sets of kitchen cabinets with one tube, if I'm lucky. For $16, I can buy a set of two-part CA glue. I can do about 16 kitchens with one set, and there's no glue line.
There's also the issue of availability. The two stores in town that carry the glue usually stock about 2 or 3 tubes at a time. So I go in, buy everything they have, and come back in about a week and see if they've restocked.
It just wasn't working out for me, as much as I wanted it to. I deeply respect the opinions of Gary and the other pros on this board, but in this case I had to put the Hipurformer in the pile of lost toys and move on with the tools that pay the bills.

Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Derrell Day 11/18/02 9:43 p.m.
I wish I would have never gotten the gun, for a couple of reasons....
1. When it works, it is wonderful, and I can see the potential of a great time saver, but I spend too much time fiddlin with it to get glue out of the darn thing.
2. This glue gun costs a $100. I expected more from Titebond than this. I don't mind paying top dollar for quality tools that make my job more efficient, but this is a PLASTIC gun that breaks on a regular basis.
3. The glue is expensive. $8 bucks a tube and I can only order it over the internet. In almost a year of frustaration I have yet to get more than 2/3 of a tube of glue to dispense. That makes a tube actually about $12.
4. I really do like the idea and wish Titebond/Franklin/Steiner had spent a little more time on research and development.
5. When I contacted Titebond they were helpful in replacing broken parts and even kicked in a few tubes of glue. But the &*%$#&*@# gun still doesn't work correctly. I wish it had been a complete failure so I could have sent it back initially and been done with the whole mess. It has enough potential to tinker with and I just hope Franklin remembers us "ginuea pigs".

Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Kraig 11/19/02 1:26 p.m.
Derrel and Gary,
Let me respond to the tube collapsing issue. When I have used a tube that has been re-heated and the plunger won't push the glue, (the seat in the cartridge is stuck), I use the dowel method. Make sure that the glue cartridge is good and hot, plug it in the gun and let it sit for 15 minutes or so. Then take it out of the gun and put the nozzle on a small hole. You could use a piece of 2x4 and drill a 1/4" hole in it, and put the cartidge nozzle in it. I could not find a dowel, or similar item handy one day so I used a 6" socket extension and put a nickel in the tube first to even out the pressure. I give it a few good raps with a hammer and it breaks loose. I have done this to many tubes, (probably 30% of the re-used tubes), and it always works. I almost always use up all the glue in the tubes, unless they have been sitting for a couple of months after the first use.
I agree that this gun has several issues, and improvements SHOULD be made, but it does work for me and is very cost effective when time is of the essence in assembling the crown on my cabinet installations.
So Gary, take it from me, I was not selling you a bill of goods when recommending this tip, I do it at least twice a week, and just did again about an hour ago.
Good luck all and I hope I can help out in the future.
Kraig

Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Derrell Day 11/19/02 5:31 p.m.
Kraig,
My tube had been heating over 30 minutes and I inserted the tip in a small hole I drilled in my miter table. I gave a couple of good raps and the only "event" I experienced was the tube collasping.
Glad to hear you're having luck with yours, though.

Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Gary Katz 11/19/02 9:11 p.m.
Kraig,
I'll give it a try. But honestly, you should have seen the smiles when I described to this group of woodworkers at Cerritos College how to get an old cartridge to work again.
I agree, the tool is badly designed and 'almost a rippoff', and I also agree that sometimes I wish I didn't have it, but I have grown dependent on the thing for pre-assembling long lengths of crown, as well as self-returns, etc. (my new 23ga pinner makes the glue gun a little less important). But we do waste a lot of cartridges.
I'll send a note to Franklin and hopefully they'll read this thread,
Gary

Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Aaron Foster 11/20/02 12:47 a.m.
I just looked on the Titebond website and they state on the HiPurformer spec page that the glue has a shelf life of 12 months unopened but only 16 HOURS once heated. I think those of you that are having trouble with your guns are using them after 16 hours of idle storage. It is too bad that you have to throw out those expensive cartridges after only one day of use, especially if you only used a small portion of it. I will never buy one of these guns based on the nightmare experiences all of you are having.
http://www.titebond.com/ProductLineTB.asp?prodline=68&prodcat=1
What we have been using for the last 6 months with excellent results is AdhesiveTech 962 in a Portasol CB900. The gun is cordless and is ready in 5 minutes, runs for 5-8 hours straight before refueling and never clogs. The glue is industrial grade and is very good for bonding wood. We are very happy with this setup as it is completely reliable, no clamps are needed, productivity goes way up and we never have to jack around with the gun. Clamps and Gorilla glue usually stay in the truck, except for the most critical of joints. Anyone else used this stuff? Have not had any problems or joint failures to date and I hope we never do as this is an enjoyable way to do a rather time consuming job otherwise.
AdhesiveTech 962

Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Derrell Day 11/20/02 6:58 a.m.
Aaron,
Where did you get the gun you are using?

Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Kraig 11/20/02 7:54 a.m.
Aaron,
Lets hear more on this gun. It looks like it would be as good of fastening w/out the headaches.
Kraig

Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Aaron Foster 11/20/02 11:26 a.m.
Got the gun and the adhesive from Adhesive Tech. Their website has the contact info for each state. The gun is nothing more than a portable high-temp glue gun. It is the glue that makes all the difference. We switched to adhesive tech 962 because it is less likely to soften in the sun as compared to the stuff you can buy off the shelf. It can still soften in an area exposed to extreme heat, so we use it everywhere else. This is not the end-all for every gluing application but you will be surprised at how many situations you can use it. And there is always epoxy/CA/Gorilla glue for those extreme joints. According to the Adhesive Tech data sheet, a 1 square inch bond of Pine to Pine will support the weight of myself and my two children. Stronger materials result in stronger bonds, most likely due to the fact that weak materials will break before the glue does. If you happen to have a high quality high-temp (400 degrees) glue gun laying around, contact Adhesive Tech for a sample of their adhesive to see if it will work for you. The gun was pricey, and although it is made of ABS plastic it is very tough. The cordless gun runs hotter than most corded so you can feed a ridiculous amount of glue out of it for larger mating surfaces. Worth every penny, we think. Still beaming about it six months later.

Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Ross Welsh 11/20/02 10:22 p.m.
Aaron:
Thanks for the information about shelf life of the hi-pur. I am curious about working time of the 962 that you use. The site says 30-40 seconds. What is your experience? Do you need a high temp gun for the 962 or does that just speed things up?
Ross

Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Aaron Foster 11/20/02 11:18 p.m.
High temp for certain, the hotter the better. The high heat gives you the most working time and lets the adhesive absorb into the material, which is critical for getting joints aligned and tight before it is too late. Anyone can use it, just don't waste time. Naturally you will need to dry fit to ensure everything will fit before applying the adhesive. Mistakes are easily fixed by scraping the stuff off while it is still warm and the stuff sands off well if it is cold.

Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Derrell Day 11/21/02 6:41 a.m.
Aaron,
How 'bout a link to the website for the gun and the glue. I can't find a site that gives much info.

Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Kraig 11/21/02 8:03 a.m.
Aaron,
Which gun do you have, I am very interested in this product. The website shows many guns. Which do you use or wished you had purchased. Thanks for the great info.
Kraig

Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Aaron Foster 11/21/02 10:07 a.m.
Gun:
http://www.adhesivetech.com/cb900.html
Adhesive:
Adhesive Tech 962

Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Heather Dages 12/9/02 4:28 p.m.
Hi Everybody,
I am the Product Manager for the HiPURformer Advanced Bonding System. Thanks to an email from Gary, I logged on to your forum and have read all of your comments. First of all, I would like to say thank you for all of the valuable information! To see comments from professional woodworkers like yourselves is very valuable to us at Franklin. I hope that I can answer some of your questions and clear up some misunderstandings.
· Shelf life: 1 year unopened in the foil pouch. Once the pouch is opened, shelf life is 4 weeks IF the cap is replaced TIGHTLY, while the adhesive is still hot. 16 hours eludes to “pot life” of the adhesive. You would not want to keep a cartridge heated for more than 16 hours without using it. It will increase the viscosity and discolor the adhesive.
· Re-use of cartridges: As long as the cap is replaced properly, you should not have to use drills, nails, hammers, dowels, or any other things to get the adhesive to extrude. Because HiPURformer is a polyurethane reactive hot melt, moisture is the curing mechanism. We have installed a ball valve in the tip of each cartridge (to prevent drooling of the glue). If moisture (from the air) gets trapped in the tip of the cartridge, it can cure a small amount of glue, which then gets caught in the ball valve, preventing extrusion: In this event, you can opt to punch out the ball valve, using a drill, nail or other means. I have never tried or heard of Kraig’s method with the dowel, but hey, Kraig, if it works for you…
· The adhesive applicator: Inadequate engineering was eluded to by many of you. In keeping with our own commitment to high quality, Franklin thoroughly researched and ultimately chose a reputable, quality manufacturer for the HiPURformer applicator. Extensive product testing did not give rise to the problems you mentioned. We have taken note of all of your comments and will bring them to the immediate attention of the applicator manufacturer.
· Cost: Kickstart raises some valid concerns! The costs that were quoted are accurate. However, MANY cabinet shops have been able to increase production times with this product, thus justifying the cost. The build up of strength with these three glues is such that pieces can be machined in less than an hour. In many applications, the use of finishing nails is eliminated, which means you don't need to go back and fill the nail hole, sand it down, etc. Also, the product is being used in maintenance work to make quick repairs without the use of clamps and waiting 24 hours before stressing joints. Furthermore, a little bit of glue goes a long way with this product! In order to maximize cost efficiency, try using dots, as opposed to whole beads of glue...you'd be surprised at how much strength you'll see.
We at Franklin are taking your comments seriously. Your input helps us work toward our goal of continually improving all of our products and services. I know that this message is long, but I wanted to adequately address the concerns you all have about HiPURformer. I hope that my tips will help you achieve success with the product. And to those of you still considering the purchase of a HiPURformer Advanced Bonding System...I hope that you decide to get one. The system can work well and there are many woodworkers experiencing success with this product. If there are other questions I can answer, please feel free to e-mail me or call our Technical Service Line 800-347-4583.
Sincerely,
Heather Dages
Product Manager – HiPURformer
Franklin International

Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
ryan 12/10/02 10:24 a.m.
wow. if only more businesses affiliated with the construction trade actually paid attention to thier customers and potential customers. kudos!

Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Kraig 12/11/02 11:12 p.m.
Heather,
Thank you for the informative post concerning your product. I think you have enlightened us somewhat on it and if nothing else, have shown concern by your company as to our concerns with your product.
Just as a clarification, my dowel solution to the glue not coming out was for when the plunger area of the glue cartrige is sticking. It had nothing to do with the nozzle end. (Though I have punched out this end with a finish nail before).
I would like to see a little more durable plunger in the gun, as well as some of the other improvements noted by others, but I will continue to use your product, and do so at least every other day.
Thank you again for your response.
Kraig

Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Gary Katz 12/17/02 12:17 a.m.
Perfect. I can't imagine a better use of the internet.
Gary

Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Heather Dages 1/2/03 3:22 p.m.
I have a couple questions for all of you. Would you have an interest in a longer open time adhesive in the HiPURformer product line? Currently, MP75 has the longest set time (75 seconds), however, I tend to think that there is a need for a product with a 3-5 minute open time for larger or more intricate assemblies.
What about a faster set time product? Our current quickest is WW30 (30 second set time).
As you can imagine, there is a great deal of time and money spent on a new product's development. I figured I would go straight to the source on this market research. I'd appreciate your input!
Thanks,
Heather

Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Mike King 1/5/03 10:15 p.m.
Hi, I would like to Thank everyone for their input. I just purchased a cordless(butane fueled) hot melt gun. It is probably one of the best made tools I've bought in a long while. It works excellent -Let it warm up and just use it all day. The place I bought mine from is "Hotstik" - A glue and gun company. Their prices were better than Adhesive tech. The glue I've been using on 400sq.ft of T&G pine is their UltraBond - @35second set time - excellent glue- just make sure you have it where you want it. I think there is a call for maybe a glue with a 60-70 sec set time. This company is excellent to deal with. Thanks again
http://www.hotstik.com

Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Kraig 1/6/03 9:27 a.m.
Heather,
Well you asked, so here goes.
I would like to see a thinner, fast set glue. To be used when I am gluing up hardwood crown with very clean cuts. The 30 second now sets good for time, but tends to leave a little build up. I have since went to the suggestion of just using a couple of drops with good success.
Also, if there was a type of glue that had a good bond, but had some flexibility in it.
Good luck, huh? But you did ask.
I can comment on the gun itself later.
Thank you for your help and concern, I do think you have a great product, and am encouraged that you respect our imput.
Kraig

Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Mike King 1/6/03 10:54 p.m.
I would have to agre with Kraig about a thinner fast set glue. I would prefer it in a hot melt stick. The cordless butane gun works flawlessly. You just wait for it to warm up then start useing it all day..no unpluging or mess n fuss. Thanks for inputs.

Re: Hi-Purformance Glue Gun
Heather Dages 1/7/03 1:50 p.m.
Kraig and Mike,
Thanks for your input. I have had a few others comment on viscosity issues. The WW30 is the adhesive with the lowest viscosity and the fastest set time, so be assured that you have chosen the best of the three adhesives for your application. I'll keep your comments in mind as we develop new adhesives for HiPURformer. One more question... would you find disposable applicator tips (to produce a finer bead) valuable? I am thinking of tips that could be screwed onto the threads of the cartridges.
Thanks again,
Heather

hot glue Question
joseph merz 1/9/03 8:52 p.m.
I have seen the poly glues form a glue line after all is done and painted ,will this hot poly glue do this also.I have the titebond brand .I have this idea that it has some gap filling strengh ,is this true?

Re: hot glue Question
clampman 1/11/03 9:46 a.m.
Joseph,
In general, yellow wood glues like titebond are the trim and cabinet guys standard for most glue ups.
I assume by "hot glue" you are speaking of the kind that comes out of an electric gun, not a glue pot. I use a 3m hot melt gun and glue for down and dirty stuff that either doesn't show, is something temporary, or is used as a fabrication aid.
Clampman

Re: hot glue Question
Heather Dages 1/14/03 3:01 p.m.
Joseph,
I am not real sure about how you are getting a glue line after the glue has fully cured, however, liquid polyurethane glues do foam as they cure. If the joint is not properly clamped and the piece is finished before the glue fully cures, I suppose you could see a glue line.
The HiPURformer adhesives are polyurethanes, as well, but in a hot melt form. They do not foam or expand as they cure, so you should not have a problem with an exposed glue line. The adhesives do have some gap filling capability. The WW60 has the thickest viscosity of the three, thus better gap filling characteristics. The HiPURformer adhesives are quite different from the typical EVA hot melts, as they build a significant amount of strength. Because they are polyurethane adhesives, they will use moisture from the wood and the environment to cure, forming a very strong, chemically cross-linked bond. It would not be temporary, but permanent.
Hope this helps.
Heather

Re: hot glue Question
joseph merz 1/14/03 9:17 p.m.
Heather ,so i did not let the liquid poly cure or dry enough before letting it get painted.It has been awhile and i do not recall the details but it did foam up and spoil the paint .i will give the stuff another chance .
regarding the hipurformer .it seems to be rather thick .i end up having this thick gob that then needs to be squeezed together ,and i end up with a glue sandwhich .I have the gun hot ,half hour today,acts like a regular hot melt gun rather then a thin joint glue like i'd expect .am i doing something wrong?

Re: hot glue Question
Derrell Day 1/15/03 6:39 a.m.
Heather,
What is the centipoise for the WW30 at 350° ?

Re: hot glue Question
Derrell Day 1/15/03 6:40 a.m.
Heather,
What about the WW60 ?

Re: hot glue Question
Heather Dages 1/15/03 8:59 a.m.
Joseph,
The HiPURformer adhesives do have a higher viscosity than a typical aliphatic resin glue, like Titebond Original. But, they have great flow. You will need to hold your pieces together tightly (or else use a clamp for a tight-fitting joint) just until the glue sets...30, 60, or 75 seconds, depending on which adhesive you are using. You may also be using too much glue. Try using a thinner bead, or just dots of glue. That may help, too.
Derrell,
The application temperature for the HiPURformer adhesives is 250 degrees F.
Here's a comparison of the viscosities:
WW30: approx. 5,000 - 8,000 cps
WW60: approx. 12,000 - 15,000 cps
MP75: approx. 8,000 - 11,000 cps
As a comparison, Titebond Original has a viscosity of 3,000 - 4,000 cps at RT.
Heather
 
     
     
   
     
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