A comprehensive educational community devoted to trim carpentry, finish carpentry and architectural millwork. Hosted by nationally recognized author and finish carpentry specialist Gary M. Katz.
 
     
  Azek  
     
  Paul P 12/4/02 9:48 p.m.
I can't find the post that talked about columns so here is my experiance with Azek.
Pros:
1. Cuts and routes better than any product I have ever used. Absolutly perfect.
2. The glue seems to hold REALLY well after only 10 minutes. So you only need a few pins to hold it till it is set.
3. It sheds water and ice like you would expect plastic to.
4. Takes nails well enough, brads seam to work better than Finish nails.
5. Nice smooth finish, flexible but strong.
Cons:
1. The dust seems to take a charge so it adheres itself to all things metal, it can be blown off but be prepared to blow off every corner and cranny.
2. The smell of the PVC glue makes me glad I am not a plumber.
3. Takes longer to work with than a wood product due to glue/primer, precautions to avoid dumping cans of glue, lots of "charges" dust around.
4. Cost was $150 for a 4x10 sheet.
I will use it again but will add 20 -30% increase in labor till I get used to the stuff. I will try to work outside with it because of the fumes from the glue.

Re: Azek
Kirk Grodske 12/5/02 12:32 p.m.
Please remember to buy and use a GOOD respirator. That stuff is not good for your lungs or sinuses and once you get a good one you might wear it more often for dust and that can only be a good thing.
Kirk

Re: Azek
Mark White 12/5/02 6:12 p.m.
Oops..
Paul, I was wondering how the job went, sounds like well enough. The real test now is in how the stuff holds paint, which I can tell you is incredible. It makes it worth the trouble and cost.
As for the glue, you should try Gorilla brand PVC cement, which is water based, no odor and no primer required (this is NOT Gorilla glue as in polyurethane glue.) It works almost as well and no respirator required.
One other note, we've just switched over to yet another PVC product called Koma. Still use Azek for routed stuff, but the Koma surface is as close to wood as it gets and the skin is hard to dent with a hammer. You may want to check around and get a chunk to play with.

Re: Azek
Gary Katz 12/9/02 10:11 p.m.
Paul,
Good information. Thanks,
Gary

Re: Azek
Rick 12/10/02 4:41 p.m.
I have been speaking with the rep who suggests using there glue.It is water based and it gives you more working time.He also said that there are uv inhibitors in it and regular pvc cement can yellow over time.He also said the product does not need primer coat.Be careful some paint manfactures do not warrent there product unless you use there primer.Sherwin Williams makes a product called Duration that does not require you to use a primer.A possible selling point'

Re: Azek
James Eggert 12/22/02 9:44 p.m.
We have recently been using more Azek trim boards.
At what point do you glue up the joints versus just nailing, especially when casing exterior windows?
Jim

Re: Azek
Dick Seibert 12/22/02 10:01 p.m.
Jim:
I have been using Windsor One for exterior trim boards, and am quite happy with it. I have bought other brands of Radiata Pine that I am not happy with. What advantages does Azek have over Windsor One?

Re: Azek
Rick 12/23/02 9:24 p.m.
Jim,
I have just started fooling with the product so I do not have too much field experience with it.I did just make a azek exterior column so I will give you some feedback on that experience.I machined some 2"band casing and some 7"crown on my Williams and Hussey molding machine.Quality is fair there are some voids in the product.Once you take off the factory coating a much more duller surface is exposed.My concern would be that it would pick up dirt and discouler over time.I glued all miter joints.The glue does not seem to adher to the factory surface.The manfacturer tells you that you do not need a primer.I tried just a finish coat and adhesion is poor I would not recomend it.You must use a bonding agent before the final coat.Hope this helps

Re: Azek
James Eggert 12/29/02 10:45 a.m.
Dick
We are attempting to use Azek as prefinished trim boards as it is sometimes advertised. I have used Windsor One before and have no complaints so far; however I wonder how long before it also telegraphs joints under the finish as FJ cedar and FJ pine does? If installed properly the Azek may not need to be field painted, but if the finish nails are installed haphazardly we'll probably have to paint it anyway. The Azek is also available in 20' lengths which may avoid scarf joints...
Rick
Interesting paint problem. You are having exactly the opposite of what everyone else has said about paint. Is there a possibility it was left too long before painting so the surface was dirty? I hope you can add more info to this.
Jim

Re: Azek
Rick 12/29/02 4:09 p.m.
Jim,
I picked up the azek at the dealer myself and saw that it was covered in storage so I do not think that dirt was the culprit.You can paint right over the product with no noticeable problems.However if you take your fingernail and just lightly scrape over the painted surface the paint will almost peel off.Scares me.That is why I would not paint the product without first using a bonding agent.Give it a try and let me know what you think

Re: Azek
Mark White 12/29/02 5:16 p.m.
No need to use a bonding agent before painting! We had exatly the same experience as Rick. I thought we were in big trouble, but called the rep and his explanation was that due to the fact that this is solid PVC and not wood then the paint solvent (in this case water) doers not get absorbed into the material but must leave through the paint film. It takes up to 10 days to cure properly! Scared the &#!t out of us at first, but when it finally did cure we couldn't get it off with a chisel.
One other thing, in our shop we say painting is 9/10ths prep and 1/10th putting it on. You should diligently clean the Azek prior to painting with a detergent and a sponge (I've never trusted pressure washing) to remove all dirt and fingermarks. A light scuff with a scotchbrite pad doesn't hurt either.
As for voids, we have never found one yet. And as for the internal texture, this is an issue and if it counts then you need to spend time with some sandpaper to smooth it out. The stuff is not magic but it sure won't rot.
Mark

Re: Azek
Bill P 12/29/02 8:39 p.m.
Mark,
What adhesive do you like for Azek?
Bill

Re: Azek
Rick 12/30/02 5:34 p.m.
Mark,
What type of paint are you using?I have been using Sherwin Williams Duration.They say you do not have to prime.Problem was poor adhesion.That is why they recommended bonding agent.Will the paint manfacture you are using warrent the paint with no primer?Sounds like different paints react differently to the product.

Re: Azek
Mark White 12/31/02 2:09 p.m.
Bill-
I use Gorilla brand, water soluble PVC cement. Works OK, not as well as plumbers cement with primer but alot nicer to work with and acceptable adhesion.
Rick-
It's my understanding that most any water based paint will work well. I'm a believer in primer no matter what. never tried Duration but have heard good things. Generally we use Benjamin Moore products with good results, but we always use a primer. When in doubt we try a sample and let it cure for 10 days before testing it out.
Have included a link to Azek's site regarding proper installation and finishing. Most manufacturers WILL NOT stake themselves to a strict finishing regime because if the paint fails they want you to chase the paint manufacturer!
Mark
http://www.azek.com/install.asp

Re: Azek
Dick Seibert 1/10/03 1:50 a.m.
So what's the verdict? I am thinking about trying it.
Azek
Paul P 12/4/02 9:48 p.m.
I can't find the post that talked about columns so here is my experiance with Azek.
Pros:
1. Cuts and routes better than any product I have ever used. Absolutly perfect.
2. The glue seems to hold REALLY well after only 10 minutes. So you only need a few pins to hold it till it is set.
3. It sheds water and ice like you would expect plastic to.
4. Takes nails well enough, brads seam to work better than Finish nails.
5. Nice smooth finish, flexible but strong.
Cons:
1. The dust seems to take a charge so it adheres itself to all things metal, it can be blown off but be prepared to blow off every corner and cranny.
2. The smell of the PVC glue makes me glad I am not a plumber.
3. Takes longer to work with than a wood product due to glue/primer, precautions to avoid dumping cans of glue, lots of "charges" dust around.
4. Cost was $150 for a 4x10 sheet.
I will use it again but will add 20 -30% increase in labor till I get used to the stuff. I will try to work outside with it because of the fumes from the glue.

Re: Azek
Kirk Grodske 12/5/02 12:32 p.m.
Please remember to buy and use a GOOD respirator. That stuff is not good for your lungs or sinuses and once you get a good one you might wear it more often for dust and that can only be a good thing.
Kirk

Re: Azek *NM*
Mark White 12/5/02 6:04 p.m.

Re: Azek
Mark White 12/5/02 6:12 p.m.
Oops..
Paul, I was wondering how the job went, sounds like well enough. The real test now is in how the stuff holds paint, which I can tell you is incredible. It makes it worth the trouble and cost.
As for the glue, you should try Gorilla brand PVC cement, which is water based, no odor and no primer required (this is NOT Gorilla glue as in polyurethane glue.) It works almost as well and no respirator required.
One other note, we've just switched over to yet another PVC product called Koma. Still use Azek for routed stuff, but the Koma surface is as close to wood as it gets and the skin is hard to dent with a hammer. You may want to check around and get a chunk to play with.

Re: Azek
Gary Katz 12/9/02 10:11 p.m.
Paul,
Good information. Thanks,
Gary

Re: Azek
Rick 12/10/02 4:41 p.m.
I have been speaking with the rep who suggests using there glue.It is water based and it gives you more working time.He also said that there are uv inhibitors in it and regular pvc cement can yellow over time.He also said the product does not need primer coat.Be careful some paint manfactures do not warrent there product unless you use there primer.Sherwin Williams makes a product called Duration that does not require you to use a primer.A possible selling point'

Re: Azek
James Eggert 12/22/02 9:44 p.m.
We have recently been using more Azek trim boards.
At what point do you glue up the joints versus just nailing, especially when casing exterior windows?
Jim

Re: Azek
Dick Seibert 12/22/02 10:01 p.m.
Jim:
I have been using Windsor One for exterior trim boards, and am quite happy with it. I have bought other brands of Radiata Pine that I am not happy with. What advantages does Azek have over Windsor One?

Re: Azek
Rick 12/23/02 9:24 p.m.
Jim,
I have just started fooling with the product so I do not have too much field experience with it.I did just make a azek exterior column so I will give you some feedback on that experience.I machined some 2"band casing and some 7"crown on my Williams and Hussey molding machine.Quality is fair there are some voids in the product.Once you take off the factory coating a much more duller surface is exposed.My concern would be that it would pick up dirt and discouler over time.I glued all miter joints.The glue does not seem to adher to the factory surface.The manfacturer tells you that you do not need a primer.I tried just a finish coat and adhesion is poor I would not recomend it.You must use a bonding agent before the final coat.Hope this helps

Re: Azek
James Eggert 12/29/02 10:45 a.m.
Dick
We are attempting to use Azek as prefinished trim boards as it is sometimes advertised. I have used Windsor One before and have no complaints so far; however I wonder how long before it also telegraphs joints under the finish as FJ cedar and FJ pine does? If installed properly the Azek may not need to be field painted, but if the finish nails are installed haphazardly we'll probably have to paint it anyway. The Azek is also available in 20' lengths which may avoid scarf joints...
Rick
Interesting paint problem. You are having exactly the opposite of what everyone else has said about paint. Is there a possibility it was left too long before painting so the surface was dirty? I hope you can add more info to this.
Jim

Re: Azek
Rick 12/29/02 4:09 p.m.
Jim,
I picked up the azek at the dealer myself and saw that it was covered in storage so I do not think that dirt was the culprit.You can paint right over the product with no noticeable problems.However if you take your fingernail and just lightly scrape over the painted surface the paint will almost peel off.Scares me.That is why I would not paint the product without first using a bonding agent.Give it a try and let me know what you think

Re: Azek
Mark White 12/29/02 5:16 p.m.
No need to use a bonding agent before painting! We had exatly the same experience as Rick. I thought we were in big trouble, but called the rep and his explanation was that due to the fact that this is solid PVC and not wood then the paint solvent (in this case water) doers not get absorbed into the material but must leave through the paint film. It takes up to 10 days to cure properly! Scared the &#!t out of us at first, but when it finally did cure we couldn't get it off with a chisel.
One other thing, in our shop we say painting is 9/10ths prep and 1/10th putting it on. You should diligently clean the Azek prior to painting with a detergent and a sponge (I've never trusted pressure washing) to remove all dirt and fingermarks. A light scuff with a scotchbrite pad doesn't hurt either.
As for voids, we have never found one yet. And as for the internal texture, this is an issue and if it counts then you need to spend time with some sandpaper to smooth it out. The stuff is not magic but it sure won't rot.
Mark

Re: Azek
Bill P 12/29/02 8:39 p.m.
Mark,
What adhesive do you like for Azek?
Bill

Re: Azek
Rick 12/30/02 5:34 p.m.
Mark,
What type of paint are you using?I have been using Sherwin Williams Duration.They say you do not have to prime.Problem was poor adhesion.That is why they recommended bonding agent.Will the paint manfacture you are using warrent the paint with no primer?Sounds like different paints react differently to the product.

Re: Azek
Mark White 12/31/02 2:09 p.m.
Bill-
I use Gorilla brand, water soluble PVC cement. Works OK, not as well as plumbers cement with primer but alot nicer to work with and acceptable adhesion.
Rick-
It's my understanding that most any water based paint will work well. I'm a believer in primer no matter what. never tried Duration but have heard good things. Generally we use Benjamin Moore products with good results, but we always use a primer. When in doubt we try a sample and let it cure for 10 days before testing it out.
Have included a link to Azek's site regarding proper installation and finishing. Most manufacturers WILL NOT stake themselves to a strict finishing regime because if the paint fails they want you to chase the paint manufacturer!
Mark
http://www.azek.com/install.asp

Re: Azek
Dick Seibert 1/10/03 1:50 a.m.
So what's the verdict? I am thinking about trying it.
 
     
     
   
     
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